Experienced people, what would you guess?

[erich]

Tony,

Thanks again. I understand and agree with everything you say (I think). There is still work to be done, but there is still hope.

You would have noticed that Ernest HARGRAVES on his marriage cert noted his mother down as Mary McWilliam.

Would you believe it, I hadn't twigged to that. I find that old florid writing style quite difficult (Charlotte Bond/Clark's final address looked like Dellurska or Detturska St to me, but it later proved to be De Murska St!), so I just assumed that was a floridly written McQu rather than McW. Silly me! Not that it matters of course, but I should have picked it.

A death in Victoria...but seen here as Mary HARGRAVE...The age at death seems appropriate.

This really is a convincing point. I had been unable to find Mary on the Ancestry lists - perhaps because I didn't try Hargrave, I can't remember - but it certainly is a useful missing piece of the jigsaw. Both lived in E melbourne also, or ended up in E Melbourne Hospital, so that is consistent. Clearly now I need to get either her or Fras's death certificate and verify. I had put off this until I had better info, but I think this is it! Thanks heaps!

Eric

PS I searched for Hargraves in cemeteries around Melbourne (as many as I could get online) and found a heap of Hargraves in the Lilydale area (where Mable died), including a Mabel Grey in Lilydale cemetery. Different spelling, but pretty likely, I would think. Haven't found Francis or Mary, but will try spelling variations.

[erich]

Well Tony and others who have taken an interest in this, unfortunately this promising lead appears to be a red herring. Mary Hargrave(s) nee McQuillan appears not to be the mother of Ernest and hence not the person I was looking for.

It was clear that the only sure way to resolve this matter was to buy one of the death certificates. Both had slightly "wrong" names (Fras instead of Francis and Hargrave instead of Hargraves for her) so I decided to go with Mary because this would offer better confirmation via her birth name of McQuillan.

Mary's death certificate indeed confirms she was the wife of Francis and her father's name was McQuillan. But (1) Ernest was not listed among her children, who were Elizabeth Alice 38, Clara 36, Edward John 34, Mabel Mary 29, Evelyn Catherine 24, Francis Leon 22, Oliver Gregory 20, Felix Reuben 16 and Frances Eleanor (dead), (2) she came from Ireland in 1853 (not Lincoln) and (3) she married Francis in Stawell, Victoria in about 1871.

One can perhaps assume that "Fras" is indeed Francis due to them both dying in East Melbourne, but that isn't certain - but I feel unwilling to pay for another death certificate "on spec".

So this has been a very interesting search. Around 1870, there was in both England (Hebden) and Australia (Stawell) a man named Francis Hargrave(s) marrying a woman named Mary McQuillan, but neither of them appear to have been my ancestor. In which case there was a third couple of the same name, perhaps marrying a few years later, which I still have yet to trace.

Thanks again for your help Tony. You helped open up a very plausible lead, and it was necessary and interesting to eliminate them from my search.

Best wishes.

[Tony Oz]

A'aahhhh...what a shame Eric.

I was reasonably sure we were on the right track, but yes, i can see this marriage on the A.V.R.I ( Austalian Vital Records Index ) and the Vic. Pioneer Index, and children born to this Francis and Mary.
Perhaps i should have checked this first.( sorry )
I think i had seen the mothers surname "McQuillan" also, on Ernest Hargraves death in 1939 on N.S.W index "Ernest McQuillan HARGRAVES" and had looked at his marriage cert where he states his mothers maiden name as "McWilliam"?? or looking close at the spelling on the cert "Mc Willaim"....and thinking, is his mothers surname McQuillian or McWilliam.!!!
Also thinking Is Ernest a Hargraves/Hargreaves or Hargrave.!!!


Not having a great deal of luck with either sides of you family tree Eric.......... Olive CLARK or Ernest HARGRAVES....and a difficult journey for you to find actual documentation on both sides.

One would assume that his ( Ernest ) marriage cert would be reasonably a safe bet, and the details added would be the closest to actual fact, next to a bith/bapt........Perhaps his mother is a McWilliam?.....but where McQuillan fits into it i cant say?

The closest births in the county of Lincolnshire for a Ernest ( spelt ) HARGREAVES i can find, was in Glanford Brigg, about 30kms north of Lincoln.

Name: Ernest Hargreaves
Year of Registration: 1884
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Glanford Brigg
County: Lincolnshire
Volume: 7a
Page: 737

I do know these area's "Lincolnshire and Yorkshire" were laden with "Woolen/cloth mills" ( Ernest's father being a Weaver ) as my own 4x great grandfather Israel Copley 1760 was one of the first among others, to invent a water powered "Woolen Slub mill" in Wakefield, Yorks in the 1700s


The only other two i can see for Lincolnshire are HARGRAVE:

Name: Ernest Edward Hargrave
Year of Registration: 1882
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Spalding
County: Lincolnshire
Volume: 7a
Page: 399


Name: Ernest Hargrave
Year of Registration: 1885
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Spalding
County: Lincolnshire
Volume: 7a
Page: 392


I have also seen others ( on Ancestry ) who have this Ernest HARGRAVES born in varying counties, but what proof exits ( documents or bapt records - census ) i also cannot say.

For now i can't find anything else that may assist as far as records in the U.K........as my knowledge and research is also limited outside Australia....... so can only wish you the best in your search.

Perhaps someone else might see something that is more conclusive?

Cheers....Tony.

[JALimestone Plains]

Folks, spent a while on ancestry and find my past looking for mable and Alice on 1881 UK census - no luck so far, also marriage of Francis and mary, also Robert and Bridget on 1841, 1851 and 1861 census, using soundex - still no luck.'
Did spot a Bridget Burton birth on IGI - to a Francis and bridget Burton but way too early
Name: Bridget Burton
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 29 Nov 1702
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT MARTIN IN THE FIELDS,WESTMINSTER,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Francis Burton
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Bridget
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C00145-5
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 560372
Reference Number:
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Sir T do you think that the family came out earlier, I know Erich you said your mother said her father was born in the UK.

I will try with hardgraves and hardgreaves as Q suggested

Cheers

JA

[JALimestone Plains]

That will teach me to read all posts but good practice for me - just read Erich's and Sir latest posts.

Erich I agree with Tones that Ernest's marriage certificate is the way to go - i was searching for a friend's family recently and the marraige certificate gave us more clues than anything else as to the parents and where they might have been born.

happy to do the UK search if and when you get it - not the most expert but getting better all the time.

[erich]

That will teach me to read all posts but good practice for me - just read Erich's and Sir latest posts.

Erich I agree with Tones that Ernest's marriage certificate is the way to go - i was searching for a friend's family recently and the marraige certificate gave us more clues than anything else as to the parents and where they might have been born.

happy to do the UK search if and when you get it - not the most expert but getting better all the time.

G'day JAL, thanks for your interest.

I have Ernest's marriage certificate and can send you an electronic copy if it would help you - just send me an email address here or on Ancestry. I can tell you that it is dated 10 April 1913, and says he was 33 years old (= born about 1880, though the similar information on his death certificate suggests 1882, so I generally use 1881), born in Lincoln England, and his parent were Francis Hargraves (weaver) and Mary McWilliam (elsewhere it says McQuillan, which is also his second name, so either could be correct).

Do I gather from your comments that you have an interest in this family, or is it just an interest in helping? (If the latter, special thanks. If the former, just let me know if you'd like an electronic copy of either certificate, or of the Mary Hargraves (McQuillan) death certificate that proved to be the wrong one.) I have searched via Ancestry, plus had some help from people on another family tree forum, and so far nothing that seems to work, but any help, any ideas, will be welcome.

Thanks again.

[erich]

i can see this marriage on the A.V.R.I ( Austalian Vital Records Index ) and the Vic. Pioneer Index, and children born to this Francis and Mary.

Tony, can you explain a little about this please?

1. Are these two indexes (indices?) not included in the Ancestry data?

2. I have looked at information in our local library in Sydney, and they have a set of Pioneer Index data, but I don't think I searched it for this couple - is there only one of these indexes, so if I use it, I would get the same as you have yourself? (I think I generally found from the things I looked up that everything at the library was on Ancestry, but perhaps I didn't look hard enough.)

3. Is there any way to see this data online?

I'm just trying to understand better what is out there so I don't miss anything I could have used.

Thanks.

[Tony Oz]

Eric. The A.V.R.I ( Australian Vital Records Index ) is a cd that covers BDM's for "some" Australian states 1790 - 1900.
It was one of the first cd's that was available in Australia regarding Family History for Births, Deaths & Marriages. ( 5 set A - Z Forename -Surname cd collection )
Unfortunatley, it only covered certain states in Australia.....N.S.W....VIC...TAS.....W.A.......but did not cover BDM's for S.A ...N.T or Q.L.D

It has flaws ( missing data & transcription errors ) and is not complete by any means.

The next set of cd's available or around the same time were the( Aussie Digger Index's ) but bought seperatley, and indexing state by state, era by era.....but a more accurate account of "registered" BDM's....but you need a few thousand dollars to purchase these. Each cd. is worth approx $200 plus per cd....per state....that only covers a few years ( using Victoria as an example ) Vic Pioneer BDM cd. 1840 - 1888......Federation cd. 1889 -1901......Edwardian cd. 1902 - 1913......Great War cd 1914 -1920......Vic marriages cd. 1921 -1942.......Vic Death Index cd.1921 - 1985

I use one against the other to cross check BDM references ( AVRI v's Digger Index )....The AVRI "sometimes" will list a birth place if searching for say, a marriage......where as using the Digger Index or registered BDM's ..may not.

So if you multiply a full 6 set of Digger BDM Index's = $1,200plus for one state ( Victoria ) alone. ( can be a very expensive excercise )
Now days one might pick up these a little cheaper at Family History outlets......and these days anyhow,some states.....N.S.W....Q.L.D......W.A...and some TASMANIA are free to search via the internet up to certain years.

Be a little wary of Ancestry's "new" addition of Aussie BDM's to its site....as they are not transcribed ( to the best of my knowledge ) from the more completed... "Digger Index" and there also missing data. ( eg:) Many of my own Family Aussie Ancestry that are "registered" on both AVRI & Aussie Digger Index's ) are not listed on Ancestry..???


These are the "Digger Index's"cd's i carry at home on my computer...that i have purchased over the last 20 years.
Some of the other Aussie's on SGR also carry these.

A.V.R.I ( Australian Vital Records BDM's ) 1788 - 1905

Vic.Pioneers BDM 1840-1888
Vic.Federation BDM 1889 -1901
Vic.Edwardian BDM 1902 - 1913
Vic.Great War.BDM 1914 - 1920
Vic.Marriages 1921 - 1942
Vic. Deaths 1921 - 1985

Victorian Death Inquest Index 1840 - 1985

NSW Pioneers 1788 - 1888

1828 census ..N.S.W ( mostly Convicts and a few free settlers )

Queensland Pioneers Index 1829 - 1889

South Australian Births Register 1842-1906
South Australian Births Register 1907 - 1926
South Australian Death Register 1842 - 1915
South Australian Marriages 1842 - 1916
South Australian Marriages 1917-1937
Western Australian Pioneer Index 1841 - 1905

Tasmanian Pioneer Index 1803 - 1899

If you need something checked/verified/ or just a second opinion just.... Holla

If you "click" on this link ( below ) it will take you to a section on SGR that i listed some years ago to Australian research links/web sites that are available on the net. Its basically a help section of sites that might be useful to people wondering whats available regarding Genealogy in Oz.

http://www.sgrboards.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=442


For shipping ( Passenger lists )

http://www.sgrboards.org/viewtopic.php?f=149&t=3697

Tony

[Q]

I am loving reading this thread. Its very educational for me, I am
not good at looking up Aussie data.

I hope we are kept up to date, so we can all celebrate when the
family is complete.

[erich]

Tony: Thanks a lot for that info and the link to the place where you list all those sites. I have bookmarked it!

Q: I will certainly let everyone know if I resolve things. But even with all Tony's information, we are currently stumped, so I am not confident. The information may simply just not be there. But I have a few ideas yet, and there is a lot of information in England that is not on the web, so may take some more digging.