Experienced people, what would you guess?

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erich
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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by erich »

Mary in Oz wrote:Crikey Eric You have a doozy here.
Well I'm interested you say that, because I have no previous experience, and yet I have difficulties on both sides of my mother's family. For all I know that could be quite normal.
Can you give any more info about this man.
I have given most of the details above, I'm not sure if there's much more to say. I would have thought that I'd find a Ernest Hargraves in Lincoln on birth records, or Francis & Mary in Lincoln at some stage (e.g. if he was born about 1891, you'd expect them to be in Lincoln on the 1891 census). Instead the two best matches I could find are both in Hebden, and were there for several censuses.

On the other side of the family, an "illegitimate" birth or an unrecorded adoption (perhaps within the wider family) seem to be the best explanations of our inability to find my great grandmother. I wonder whether that could be the explanation here?

I therefore wonder, if no-one else finds them, that the right place to start may be to work backwards. The earliest known facts I have documented are his wedding (in Melbourne) in 1913 and his employment at Jervis Bay. If he truly arrived in NSW about 1899, then is there any way to trace him in that intervening period? I tried the Navy, but haven't got anywhere with that. Perhaps there's an electoral roll I could try. Another thought would be to find him on a passenger list, and at least confirm when he arrived, and where he departed from.

About the only other info I can offer is that marriage and death certificates show religion as C of E.

Thanks again everyone.
Last edited by erich on Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Q
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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by Q »

Think I have mentioned this before, could hargraves/Hargreaves have been
Hardgreaves/Hardgraves at some time. Seems a more common name for
Yorkshire/Lancashire.

Worth a look if you haven't already done so.
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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by Mary in Oz »

found on the 1930 and 1933 electoral role district of Maroubra North..South Sydney

Hargraves Ernest 257 Botony Street occ.. Chef
" Gertrude Mary " " Home duties..
Mary
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erich
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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by erich »

Q wrote:Think I have mentioned this before, could hargraves/Hargreaves have been
Hardgreaves/Hardgraves at some time. Seems a more common name for
Yorkshire/Lancashire.

Worth a look if you haven't already done so.
I have looked for the obvious spelling variations - Hargrave, Hargreaves and Hargreave, but I hadn't thought of them. Good thinking 99! : ) It certainly seems true that there were heaps of Hargraves and variants in those two counties, but you would think a weaver might be more common in Lancashire or Lincoln.
Mary in Oz wrote:found on the 1930 and 1933 electoral role district of Maroubra North..South Sydney

Hargraves Ernest 257 Botony Street occ.. Chef
" Gertrude Mary " " Home duties..
Yep, that's definitely them. Thanks, I'll add that to the info I have. She died in 1934, and I know he was living in Maroubra when he died in 1939. Now if only we can find him in the period 1900-1912. He wouldn't have lived there then.

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Tony Oz
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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by Tony Oz »

Hi Eric.

I'm starting to think they all came out here as a family..........and why Ernest HARGRAVES may have been in Victoria during 1913 when he married Olive Blanche CLARK.....as he had siblings here in Victoria, possibly at this time.


Ernest HARGRAVES ( Sibling deaths ) Victoria. ( below )

Surname: GREY
Given Names: Mable Mary
Father: Hargraves Francis
Mother: Mary MCQUILLIAN
Death Place: LDALE ( Lilydale )
Age: 66
Age Code:
Year: 1944................................birth c.1878
Reg Number: 20977
Event: D


Surname: HARGRAVES ( It appears or possibly Alice never married, as she died as a HARGRAVES )
Given Names: Alice
Event: D
Sex:
Spouse Surname/Father: Hargraves Francis
Spouse Gvn Names/Mother: Mary MCQULLIAN
Age: 40
Age Code:
Birth Place:
Death Place: Mpna ( Poss: Mooroopna near Shepparton central Vic.)
Year: 1915......................................birth c.1875
Reg. Number: 6311



Surname: HARGRAVES
Given Names: Fras........................( Francis? )
Event: D
Sex:
Spouse Surname/Father: Hargraves Robt
Spouse Gvn Names/Mother: Bridt BURTON
Age: 62
Age Code:
Birth Place:
Death Place: Melb E H ( Poss: East Melb Hospital )
Year: 1902................................................would give a birth c.1840
Reg. Number: 2433

Passengers......A possible? ..below...( Two adults and 4 children ) and perhaps why you cant find them on the 1891 census, as they possibly arrived 1890 to Oz

If Ernest HARGRAVES was born between census years 1881 and 1891 then naturally he wont be found on a U.K census.


This is not conclusive, as no given names are listed, but its a close as i can find on what shipping records i have.
Ship: WAROONGA
OF BRISBANE, D. CAEDER, MASTER, BURTHEN 251 TONS
FROM NOUMEA AND FIJI TO SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, 24TH SEPTEMBER 1890.

HARGRAVES MR. PASSENGER STEERAGE
HARGRAVES MRS. PASSENGER STEERAGE
HARGRAVES CHILD 1 PASSENGER STEERAGE
HARGRAVES CHILD 2 PASSENGER STEERAGE
HARGRAVES CHILD 3 PASSENGER STEERAGE
HARGRAVES CHILD 4 PASSENGER STEERAGE

There also appears to be a F.HARGRAVES ( male ) leaving the U.K also in 1890 heading for Sydney Aus.?
HARGRAVES F 1867 M 1890 London Australia Sydney


Now with sibling names....it should ( perhaps ) make it easier to seach U.K census for the family.....unless all siblings were born between census years.....lol

Tony
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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by Mary in Oz »

Tony I think you have found them,,The Francis and Mary I found in the 71 and 81 census are probably them and could they have left the UK with Ernest as a baby and he wasent registered in England..The other children could have been born after that...

I am off to Canberra tomorrow so I will leave it in your capable hands..you have done wanders..knew you were smart.. :D :D
Mary
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Tony Oz
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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by Tony Oz »

lol....Mary.

Dont know about smart!!......coz if i was smart, i would be rich :lol:

At the least it gives Eric something to work on


But thanks for the compliment :bh :bk
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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by Tony Oz »

Just to add re: Mabel Mary HARGRAVES ( seen as HARGRAVE )



Marriage Vic.
Surname: GREY
Given Names: Albt Ernt
Event: M
Sex:
Spouse Surname/Father: HAGRAVE
Spouse Gvn Names/Mother: Mabel Mary
Age:
Age Code:
Birth Place: LDALE
Death Place:
Year: 1906
Reg. Number: 3419R


***************************
Births registered in Vic.

Surname: GREY
Given Names: Agnes Loyla
Event: B
Sex: F
Spouse Surname/Father: Albt Ernt
Spouse Gvn Names/Mother: Mabel Mary HARGRAVE
Age:
Age Code:
Birth Place: LILYDALE
Death Place:
Year: 1911
Reg. Number: 21438

Surname: GREY
Given Names: Mary Teresa
Event: B
Sex: F
Spouse Surname/Father: Albt Ernt
Spouse Gvn Names/Mother: Mabel Mary HARGRAVE
Age:
Age Code:
Birth Place: BUNYIP SOUTH
Death Place:
Year: 1907
Reg. Number: 16760

Surname: GREY
Given Names: Fran Jas
Event: B
Sex: M
Spouse Surname/Father: Albt Ernt
Spouse Gvn Names/Mother: Mabel Mary HARGREAVES
Age:
Age Code:
Birth Place: LILYDALE
Death Place:
Year: 1909
Reg. Number: 20581

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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by erich »

Thank you again everyone for your interest and help.

Mary, I have looked through your list of "finds", and I can't see how any of them can fit together, but thanks for the effort. Perhaps we will find one of them does fit, but I can't see it at the moment.

Tony, your suggestion that they may have come out to Australia as a family is well worth considering. I have looked at all your names, and checked as many out as I have been able to so far, and I see some difficulties (though that doesn't mean it doesn't all hang together, just that I have some more work to do to determine that!):
  1. I'm not sure about the passenger information you have - like you said, there are no first names. But also, the boat came from Noumea and Fiji, which seems not to fit what was surely a fairly poor family (though your passengers did travel "steerage", which would fit) - why would they go from England to Fiji, then Australia? It's possible, but I'd need to know more.
  2. I had found Mable through an online Ancestry tree, and feel you have shown that either she is Ernest's sister or it is a remarkable coincidence. So I'm pretty happy with that. The tree I found her on (Fry Family Tree) shows Francis Hargraves and Mary nee "Mcouillian" living in Hebden, Yorkshire, but this has some problems as I outlined in my opening post. A further problem is that the two of them were still in Hebden in 1891. So they cannot have come to Australia, but I can see no reason other than the names to identify this couple as Mable's parents, and I think the Fry Family Tree may be incorrect.
  3. I have found the Fras that you also found, but so far haven't been able to locate Alice in Australia on either the Ancestry database or on the Victorian BDM's. I have been unable to find Mary in Australia either, though it is possible she died in transit or before they left.
I think the only way to settle this may be for me to buy the death certificates of either Fras or Mable, or both, and see if they give enough information to clarify. But first I will try to find someone else who already has these certificates because I don't want to blow my budget on unconnected people - though in the end I may have to. Also helpful would be for me to find what happened between 1880, when you suggest they may have traveled, and 1899 when Ernest said he first came to NSW. I will also chase up the children of Mable and see what I can glean from there.

So thanks again, I have much work still to do, but talking this through and getting help with the information has been very helpful. Any more suggestions from people will always be welcome! :bh

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Tony Oz
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Re: Experienced people, what would you guess?

Post by Tony Oz »

Hi Eric.

The ship passenger list of a HARGRAVES family i added, was of course only a possibly, and would need further investigation.
Direct routes from the U.K to Australia so history tells us were far and few, and many passenger ships docked at many ports before arriving in Oz. Most early sailing ships ( trade wind era ) after different colonys were established, came firstly down the West Coast of Oz and first port of call was Swan River/Fremantle next, Port Phillip, Tasmania, New Zealand....and then up the East Coast to Sydney.


The Fry family tree on Ancestry with the mother of Mabel HARGRAVES as "Mary Mcouillian" would be a typo/spelling/ soundex....or a calculated attempt of her surname, remembering that many of our ancestors would not have known their mothers surname, apart from being able to spell them.
Death certs are in particular the worst, when it comes to adding a mothers surname by an informant of the deceased,as the person deceased naturally has no say in what is noted on his/her death cert. Many death certs are filled in by family members or freinds perhaps,and are only as good as to how much the informant knew about the deceased. Even a spouse of a deceased may have a calculated guess at his/her partners mothers maiden name. I have come across this many times, and even on my own certs relating to my ancestors.

You would have noticed that Ernest HARGRAVES on his marriage cert noted his mother down as Mary McWilliam.
This can be a soundex error also by the person filling out the cert as well.........so McQuillan could sound like McWilliam ect,ect ...and i think on various BDM's of this family you will come across many variations of both........ HARGRAVES/HARGREAVES/HARGRAVE/ and McQUILLAN.ect,ect..

I think we may have something here ( below ) regarding Mary HARGRAVES ( McQuillian ) wife of Francis, and would be worth consideration.

This leads me to beleive again, that the family travelled out from the U.K to-gether....but not necessarily in 1890

The death of Fras HARGRAVES that i added, was again only a possibly and would need further investigation.

A death in Victoria...but seen here as Mary HARGRAVE...The age at death seems appropriate.

Surname: HARGRAVE
Given Names: Mary
Event: D
Sex:
Spouse Surname/Father: Mcquillan Jas
Spouse Gvn Names/Mother: Mary FITZPATRICK
Age: 60
Age Code:
Birth Place:
Death Place: E Melb
Year: 1909
Reg. Number: 5764

Here again,a purchase of this cert should hopefully tell how long in Australia, and help narrow down a window of Arrival from the U.K

Since finding the last HARGRAVES passenger arriving in 1890, i have come across many,many more, that could be possibilites, but again only listed as Mr& Mrs Hargraves and children.


Cheers. Tony
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